This is artist soapbox.

Through interviews and original scripted audio fiction.

We deliver stories that speak to your hearts and your minds.

Hello, Soapboxers.

This is Mara Thomas.

Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation with Isabel O'Hara Walsh.

Isabel leads, writing workshops through the Red Bud writing project.

Red bud offers classes virtually and around the triangle on

topics like writing the.

Experimental fiction and one that Isabel and I talk about joyful creation, how

to get your writing juices flowing when staring at that blank page,

Isabel shares about their experience incorporating anti-racist practices into

the workshop and feedback processes.

An important resource in helping to shape this framework is the book,

The Anti-racist Writers' Work: How to Decolonize the Creative

Classroom by Felicia Rose Chavez.

Chavez's book challenges in her words, "arts politics of power and privilege

and lays bare the ways that traditional read white supremacists methods of

running workshops, work to silence, the voices of writers of color and writers

with other marginalized identities".

Isabel and I also discuss another artist soapbox favorite when it comes

to rethinking the feedback process, Liz Lerman's Critcal Response Process.

Lerman's work helps tailor the feedback process.

To help the creator retain agency over their work and create an environment

where they get the feedback they're actually looking for rather than an

onslaught of unfiltered opinions.

Please see the show notes for links to these important resources.

Isabel O'Hara Walsh is a writer, teacher and practicing witch, a

graduate of the MFA program in fiction at North Carolina state university.

Isabel teaches fiction writing at the red bud writing project, has

published short stories in pastel pastoral and the meta worker, and

is at work on her second novel.

Through her business edgewise, which Isabelle offers transformative

one on one and group work sessions that incorporate tarot, writing,

and other ritual to clarify the right path forward for her clients.

Please enjoy this conversation with Isabel O'Hara Walsh.

Hi, Isabel.

We are so happy to have you with us today on artist soapbox.

Welcome.

Thank you, Mara.

It's such a pleasure.

I'm so glad to be here.

Yeah, it's really great to just get to connect with

someone in the writing world.

And I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about how you came

to be part of Red Bud, and yeah,

just kinda share that journey with us.

I came to red bud through the North Carolina

state fiction MFA program.

So red bud was started by two women who were in the year above me at the MFA.

And I knew that they were going to start this writing program

for adults when they graduated.

And that seemed really amazing.

And.

I also didn't know how long I was going to stay in the area after graduating.

So I was excited to have the possibility of maybe getting

involved there, but really was trying to kind of keep an open mind.

My partner and I were considering moving after I graduated, but so I graduated in

And by that point, I was really excited about red bud and, and

what they were starting and knew I wanted to start teaching for.

Also knew that we were probably going to be staying in North Carolina a little

bit longer than maybe we had thought.

And over the years, that's, that's really shifted.

I now plan to live in Raleigh indefinitely and, and love living here.

That shifted, I started teaching for Red Bud.

I started teaching fiction.

Fiction is definitely my specialty.

And over the last, I guess that's two years.

I've kind of expanded my repertoire of classes to include

a whole bunch of other things.

I teach writing the eerie and uncanny.

I teach a joyful invention, sort of generative get your

creative juices flowing class.

And it's been really amazing to have kind of not, I haven't been part of

things since day one, but I, I definitely connected with red bud early and with

Emily and Arshia who run red bud.

It's really fun because they are building something even as I am a part of it.

So I get to really hear their vision and support it and, you

know, throw my ideas into the hat.

It's just been a really cool two years of watching this community

form around creative people, living in the triangle, who.

Maybe didn't have space for writing or even creativity at all in

their lives before, and who are really carving out this space and

honoring that part of themselves.

I think that's definitely one of my favorite things about teaching for

red, but it's just being with people in that time when, when they're

really making space to be creative.

I love that I have already got four or five questions to ask.

just based on what you shared.

Well, first I feel like I even wanna zoom out a little bit further.

What brought you to the NC state MFA program and, you know, kind of gathering,

maybe not a North Carolina native.

So where, where did you live prior to this?

Yeah,

I grew up in Massachusetts and then I went

to college in Ohio and moved back to Portland Maine after that.

I was an English major and had, um, like a very, I don't know,

privileged liberal arts education.

And when I moved to Maine, I started working in a school, kind of doing

aftercare and, and I also played in a band for a while while I was there.

I basically graduated and was like, so tired of writing.

I never wanna write again.

I only wanna do music.

And, uh, was kind of trying to create a life in which that could happen.

And it took me about a year to really, really, really miss writing and

need that creative outlet, which is something I've always really loved.

I've always loved writing stories.

I've always loved reading fiction.

I really struggle with nonfiction, but fiction's always been very,

very easy and pleasurable for me.

. And so when I was living in Maine, I started writing a romance novel

just to like, have something, to get myself back into it, which.

Did not make it very far, but I loved kind of just playing around with, and then at

a certain point, I just knew that I wanted to go back to school for fiction writing.

And that, that was kind of the next step on my path of doing

the work that I really loved.

And so I started to research programs and.

It's often really competitive.

So I applied twice and the second time got into NC states program

and be Boggs reached out to me.

Who's the current director of the program and, and she was really

kind and warm and it just felt like.

A good place to be energetically for me.

I, I do.

I also do a lot of energy work, so I was really feeling into it from that place.

So my partner and I, we had specifically pitched programs that

were in places where we would both be able to find jobs and things to do.

And Raleigh was on that list.

So we moved here and I think were both sort of like ready to get

somewhere warmer than Maine and ready to start a new chapter of our

individual and collective lives.

And, um, Raleigh was, was something, you know, I, I had really

thought I would move back to new England and then, and moved here.

And we just found so much community here that we feel

really part of and love so much.

And, um, Red Bud has definitely been a part of that of, of just

like having writer, friends, which is something I never had before

moving here.

Having people who are passionate about the same craft that I get really

excited about and just being able to have those conversations regularly

is something I'm deeply grateful for.

And I find super exciting.

Well, and I don't know about you, but to the community piece,

you know, for myself at the risk of projecting, it's also really, I know

for myself, it's really helpful to have folks to be accountable to, you know, so

whether that's, you know, you're gonna have coffee with someone or they're gonna

be reading an upcoming draft, like that is a thing that helps keep me motivated

to do my practice and to make sure that I have something for them to read.

Yeah, absolutely.

And having that be something that is infused with like

friendship and mutual care.

Really makes it so much easier to stay engaged with.

And I think that that is something that's pretty cool about the triangle I've

been, I was talking with someone who.

I think was also a transplant to this area recently.

And, and just noting, like, there are like a lot of small cities in one area or

like big towns and each one has kind of a different flavor and there's different

community initiatives, but to be able to live in somewhere where there's just

like a lot of people and a lot of people who have energy to start things, organize

and, and stay engaged with each other.

There's sort of like a special alchemy of the way the triangle is organized.

That is unlike anywhere I've ever lived.

And that I think does kind of foster those creative connections,

starting things, being passionate because I, part of it is also, it's

just, it's really beautiful here.

There's a lot of nature and that's interspersed with, for me, that's, that's

really important to my creative world and that's interspersed with the dense

densely populous areas in a way that, uh, feels like it feeds the community energy.

I love the way you described the alchemy, because I have felt that too.

And I also have not lived in North Carolina my whole life.

I grew up in Minnesota, but I've been here for over 20 years and I

really resonate with the part where you described each town in the

triangle, sort of has its own flavor.

Like I consider.

The Carborro/Chapel HIll music scene to be the one that I, you know,

kind of feel the most connected to.

And yet in Durham has been part of my theater life.

So just, you know, for anybody who is interested in, whether it's visual art or

dance or performing arts or writing, like there are opportunities to get involved,

you know, no matter if you went to school for it, no matter if it's your first time.

No matter if you have been doing one thing for a long time and wanna try

something else, like there's just, you know, lots of people out there who are

just there to support and help make things happen and connect you with folks.

To me, it's always felt like the bar to entry is really low.

You know, mostly just takes the will.

and from there, like the community, it just kind of exists

all around it.

Yeah, I think that's true.

And I think it's, it's exciting to know that that's out there and to, I

mean, and this is sort of tied into our larger conversation for today, but

also part of why I moved here is that.

The place that I lived in Maine is largely white and like really largely

like, there's, it's a very white area.

And moving here was something that was just sort of like, well, I, I grew up in

new England and I wanted to work through some of my own stuff by moving somewhere

that was more diverse where there was just like a little bit more direct

conversation around racial inequity.

And you know, where the elections were a little more purple, a little harder to

tell, or maybe clearly read and where, you know, coming from somewhere where

it was just like democratic elections were kind of a guarantee, but there was

also a level of complacency with that.

I think the complacency in community.

Are they're they have real push pull.

So moving here, there's I think a really exciting lack of complacency and a real

abundance of fruitful conversations about what is unjust and what is unacceptable

or keeping all community members safe and cared for that is really tied into

building stronger creative bonds as.

Well, thank you for partly doing my job for me, which is offering

this beautiful transition to some other areas that we we're gonna focus on today.

You know, I've shared with our listeners before that part of my focus with my

artist soapbox episodes is to talk about.

The places where creativity and mental health are coexisting, which for my

money is just about all the time.

And I know that through red bud, one of the things you've been

developing is an anti-racist approach to running writing groups.

I'd just love it.

If you could share a little more about how you came to devise this.

Let's start there and then we'll get into what it's been like on the ground.

But first let's start with, you know, how, how this idea came to you.

Yeah,

I would say not surprisingly, the idea came from a

student of color and I think that's often the case that we get sort of like

reminded and the emotional labor is often done by the people of color in

our communities to get us on a better.

and so, but my hope was okay, what can I do as a white teacher now to, uh,

really hear that and move with it and shift the way that my workshops are done,

because I was using for my first, almost whole year of, of red bud, I was using a

workshop method that is pretty standard.

And I would say traditional by which I think I.

By which I know I'm also saying developed in white supremacist academic circles.

And that's not to say that there's, you know, I say white supremacists pretty

broadly in the sense of, we are all a part of white supremacy, unless we are actively

working to be anti-racist, it's just the structure in which we live and operate.

So as with a lot of structures that are become sort of the norm, the workshop

structure that I was using was one that.

Involves like a student will submit their work.

Everyone reads it.

Everyone makes notes on it.

Everyone writes a response letter about what they are critiquing in it.

And then in the workshop itself, the student remains silent the whole time and

listens to feedback while taking notes.

And then at the end can ask questions.

And my student recommended to me was a book called the anti-racist writing

workshop, how to decolonize the creative classroom by Felicia Rose Chavez and in

it, Felicia Rose Chavez talks about how.

That traditional Iowa writer's workshop, I think is where it

gets credit for originating.

How that workshop method is often inherently violent towards students

of color, who spend a lot of their days being silenced anyways.

And so this idea that when someone comes to a creative classroom, they should

have a voice and that voice ness should inherently be a part of the classroom,

especially, and in particular for students of color was, is really foundational to

that book, which I, I strongly recommend reading it to anyone who's running a

writing workshop, or may have a say in how to run a writing workshop or just anyone

who's working in creative groupings.

I think it does a really great job of taking how to have a

trauma informed and anti-racist approach to any creative gathering

where feedback is being provided.

And so I read that book and started right away to implement some of Chavez's

ideas about how to structure a workshop.

And the switch that I made that she outlines is so a

student submits their piece.

I think that she doesn't have people write margin notes.

I let people choose whether or not they want notes written

in the margins of their piece.

Oh.

And then the author, instead of receiving a bunch of critique letters from the

workshop participants, the author writes an artist statement, which this is

Felicia Rose Chavez uses the Liz Lerman critical response process, which is, was

critique process established by a, a dance professor and then adds onto it

a few things, including this artist statement, where the author says,

what was challenging for them about the piece, what was successful, what

they're hoping for moving forward.

There's a few other questions, and then, really importantly, a few craft questions.

I have my students do two craft questions about what they

like to work on and revision.

So it really places the authority back in the hands of the writer.

So that there's this.

Sort of inherent affirmation of like, you are smart enough to know what you need

help with and you can guide us better than anyone else, including a workshop leader.

And also then the autonomy is back in the student's hands.

So let's say that.

It's a student of color in a classroom of white students.

There is risk of microaggression.

There is a risk of verbal violence and the student has more control

over whether or not they're put in a dangerous or harmful situation.

By being able to say, in the moment of the workshop.

Yes.

I'd like to hear feedback on this, or no, I'm not ready to

hear feedback on that right now.

And choosing who they are interested in hearing feedback from.

So it's just a real transfer of authority from this sort of like nebulous workshop

leader, director, like directorial, like someone else, making decisions

for you to really putting it back into more communal like communal and

community oriented and focused on.

What will be useful moment to moment and what will be safe and comfortable

moment to moment sort of approach

I'm just over here, nodding, along with everything that you're

saying, because I've found Liz Lerman's work a few years ago, and actually

on this podcast, we've talked about it in, in our kinda artist soap box

writings about the inherent discomfort that comes in the critique process.

I'm over here, just imagining the times that I've had my play scripts that

are going through a first or a second draft and hearing people, reading them

aloud for the first time, you know, it really brings up so much in us.

And, you know, thinking about this from a mental health point of view, our brains

can't tell the difference between fear based on sharing, writing versus fear of,

you know, being eaten by a wild animal.

It still pumps the same hormones through our bodies.

It kind of hits the same part of our, our lizard brain.

So I'd love to hear folks implementing that kind of process, you know, and, and

adapting it for their specific art forms.

Cuz I just, I'm such a believer in.

We don't need to have the kitchen sink approach to critique.

We can really get intentional about how it's done.

And like you mentioned, letting the creator be in control and have that

agency around what they're willing to let in or what they're willing to receive.

Yeah.

I really appreciate that.

And, and that idea of mental health is, so I think that.

Also gets the backseat when we're sort of like deciding whether or not to

use established structures for whether it's for a creative classroom or like

really any type of academic setting where really any type of setting.

I think that mental health often, well, I think it gets the backseat.

And I also think that white mental.

Is often just like much more in the forefront of the media and the public eye.

And so what was really helpful for me in reading this book was Alicia Rose

Chavez, just focusing on prioritizing the mental health of students of

color in a creative environment,

and just saying like, here are the things that are different for white people.

Like here's what you have.

And have access to, and there are ways that you are taking care of on the

daily that a student of color might not necessarily have and, and is probably

likely to not have such that it is.

If you want to be able to like safely and invitingly invite students of color

into your classroom, you're gonna have to create a different kind of space.

That.

Yes.

Completely agree.

And so what has it been like, you know, as you've been implementing this new

method in your workshops, how's it

going?

I think in a lot of ways it's more intuitive for a lot of people.

There's sort of this like aside from, I mean, aside from, and in addition to

being, anti-racist it, I have a lot of white students and they also often enjoy

the ability to participate in conversation about their work rather than being,

you know, waiting until the end to, to start to ask questions

the end of the workshop.

And I think that there's really something there about just like creating

a warm and welcoming space for, for everybody that is not, you know, may

perhaps it's not necessary to have.

Good mental health as a white person, but it could also be quite nice to have this

like warm, friendly sort of conversational space, which is not to say that.

If you do not use this workshop method, you cannot have that.

I think that that warm sort of camaraderie is something that red bud

students are really great at creating.

And so that's definitely just part of like to use the word alchemy

again, it's part of the alchemy of a group of red bud students often.

But there's so in, in that way, I enjoy it.

I think that it opens the door for a little bit more taking on of, of authority

as a writer and responsibility, which I think is really exciting as like to focus

it on it as an anti-racist approach.

I do get some pushback from students.

Sometimes.

I think the biggest thing that gets pushed, I think, first of all, it's

just unfamiliar to a lot of people, which is perfectly understandable and

there's sort of this awkward adjustment period of like, oh, well I've never

taken a workshop like this before.

I don't really know how it'll feel.

I don't totally trust that it will be useful to me because I've never done it.

And I definitely understand that this is not yet the norm for writers' workshops.

And then I think the biggest place that I get pushback, there's a

part of the workshop process.

Chavez has created in, in conversation with Liz Lerman's process.

That is once you have in the workshop, the author, there's sort of like a few

steps to kind of get us into the world of the piece and, and sort of bring everyone

back into thinking about the piece.

And then eventually the author walks us through the craft questions that they've

asked in their artist's statements.

So they'll say, you know, I was wondering, this is written in third person.

Do you think it would work better in first?

Do you think that it would connect with the reader more deeply this way?

Do you think it would serve my, my like meaning purposes better?

That's just an example.

And, and we'll spend time with what the author has decided to spend time on.

And then at the end, There's space for what Chavez calls, permissioned

opinions and neutral questions.

And this is where conceptually, I think it gets a little trickier.

Permissioned opinions is basically what, in a quote unquote traditional

writer's workshop would be the whole thing would be just people saying

what they think and are critiquing about different parts of the piece.

But in this workshop method, the person, the part.

Who has an opinion has to say, I have an opinion about your character development.

Would you be interested in hearing it and then the author

has the option to say yes or no.

And a neutral question is something like, what were you trying to achieve

with your character development?

What was, what was your hope for that arc or I, I was really

curious about this character.

Can you tell me.

A little more about the role that they play.

Those are very similar questions, but I think you get the idea and it's

not a, you know, why did you do this?

Or I think this would be better if it were different, do you agree?

It's very neutral.

And the author really isn't, I think intended to start a conversation with

the author that might help them clarify some things, but the place that people

get stuck on is the permission opinions.

And.

It is almost entirely white students who get stuck on this.

I also teach a majority of white students, so that's definitely intertwined.

And I don't say that to accuse my white students of, you know, not going along

with the program or not getting it.

I think it is a tricky space for.

People with white privilege to wrap their heads around.

And I got to do my, you know, unpacking and unlearning in private

when I read this book to myself.

And so in the moment, if people are put on the spot to do that unpacking

and unlearning in the moment, I think that that can be quite challenging, cuz

there's often sort of this reaction of.

Well, you know, if it's a, if it's a white student being, workshoped,

they'll be like, well, you can just say all the opinions, you know, why

would you need to ask permission?

And I have to kind of go, okay, that's cool that you feel that way.

You are allowed to give a banner acceptance to all opinions, but that's

an act that you are choosing to do.

And I'm going to continue to remind everyone to.

Ask for permission, that is really crucial.

And that's something that Chavez talks about in the anti-racist writing

workshop is that often it's white male students who are like, well, this

is kind of too soft of a workshop.

It doesn't feel rigorous enough.

And that sort of perhaps troubling idea that something must be kind

of painful and, and rigorous in a challenging way in order to be useful.

And I think that that often overlaps with the permission opinions idea.

That's like, well, just bring it on.

I can take it.

That may be true for that person.

And that might be the most useful thing for them.

But I also think it's something that we as white people often say without

thinking that it's like, well, I'm, you know, I can take it, bring it on, tell me

what you tell me what you really think.

And, and this idea.

for someone who perhaps has not moved through the day with as much

privilege and has, has weathered a lot more challenges being put through

the ringer during a creative and vulnerable time is actually really

unproductive and potentially harmful.

And so just, that's definitely the place that's been.

Require the most conversation in workshops to say, Hey, this is a non-negotiable.

And also here's, if you have questions about why it's a non-negotiable,

we can absolutely talk about them.

And once we sort of open that door of like, here's why it's the case, it

generally makes sense to everybody,

and everyone is accepting of it.

There's sort of this like maybe first day or two, but I would

say for the most part overall, My students have been really on board.

And for those who like needed another day or two to work through

those ideas, they have that.

And that's the fact that they need that is totally fine.

Then it comes it circles right back to the community of the classroom and

the space that we co-create together.

I think that that is really central to it.

And, and Chavez really focuses a lot on that idea of this is so we can create a

collective narrative of everybody's voice.

And so if we keep circling back to that idea, that the, the core tenant

is to create a collective, you know, a new cannon with everybody's voice

heard it starts to feel more intuitive.

What you're saying, just reminds me of, I'm sure I saw

this on Instagram forever ago, but it was just a very simple statement.

You know, if you work with human beings in any capacity, being trauma informed

is not optional, you know, and I think it's part of unpacking privilege.

It's part of deconstructing these.

These ways that a lot of folks take as just, this is just how you run a workshop.

You know, you take for granted without really considering how this came

to be and the impact on people with marginalized identities who are also

trying to navigate these systems.

You know, it's not surprising to me to hear that some folks are,

are struggling with that piece of, well, this is okay for me.

So it should be okay for everybody else.

And it sounds like you're really giving your students this

opportunity to learn a different way.

And model this other way of just organizing the, the feedback process

and this collective narrative process.

I think it sounds really beautiful.

I wish we had all the time in the world to talk about it, cuz this is

so enriching and it's giving me a lot to think about, you know, as we are

getting toward the end of our discussion today, I wanted to circle back.

You mentioned something that was so interesting talking about

the classes that you teach.

And if I heard it.

What I heard was joyful invention.

Did I get that right?

Yes.

As a person who kind of needs to jumpstart my joyfulness with my creativity every

now and then I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about how that class

goes and what are some of the things that help you connect with the joy of creation?

Yeah.

I love that class.

I love this question.

It's a real joy to teach as well.

Um, I think so I teach kind of two levels of it.

One.

I think right now, we're just calling it joyful invention or

joyful creation one and two.

And, but the idea is basically for joyful invention last summer,

I read Linda Berry's syllabus recommended by a friend and it blew

my mind and got me really pumped up.

And I was like, I gotta teach a class.

It's based on this, where like writers are pushed into uncomfortable spaces

with their creativity and where they are.

You know, I think that's where the electricity kind of starts.

And, and Linda Barry talks about that.

She's sort of like, this is, you know, we gotta, we gotta go into the spook house.

I think she calls it rather than the Merry go round, where if you're

on the Merry go round, you're not really making anything interesting.

And it's when the.

You know, not in a harmful way, but when you are feeling vulnerable and kind

of on the edge of that vulnerability, that you, you make interesting

things that, that feel representative of your processing and emotions.

And so that class.

Just basic joyful invention class.

I constructed using a lot of Barrys ideas, but also just sort of starting to be

like, okay, well, what for me helps me jumpstart my process and I write novels.

So there's a lot of jumpstarting that has to happen during the like

two year minimum commitment of writing this really long thing.

You have to.

Coming back to it and recommitting to it and, and getting recited

about it all over again in order to complete a story of that length.

And so I started incorporating drawing, which I do in my own practice.

And then I have a day with my students where I'll just read them like children's

stories from different countries and have them kind of either doodle or write

down ideas that come up for them, or just sometimes people will just listen and

it's like, No one ever just reads you a story anymore as an adult, but it was

so many people's favorite school time was just being read to, and it really

allows your mind and your soul to kind of wander into these creative territories.

And, um, so it's really for people who.

Maybe need to restart that flow of creative energy.

And it, it is not a wrong or bad thing.

If you do not feel it flowing all the time that.

What everyone experiences.

And so just having this space where for me, I think the biggest part for me was

making sure that I didn't fill up the space too much and that I left open space

for magic to happen during class with just whatever came in to fill the void.

And boy was like, glad that I did that, cuz we it's, it makes every

class really different and really guided by the people who are investing

themselves creatively in the class.

And we have such fascinating discussions about what feels meaningful and, and

sparks interest and makes us feel, you know, creating is hard and it is

often very emotional often when people end up writing about is like it's.

Joy and fun are not the same or joy and pleasure are not the same.

That joy is, is often pleasurable, but is also often just like this deep creative

burst of knowing that you're on some right path for what you're trying to make.

And I wonder too, you know, just with the container that you're

helping to make in your classrooms, where people feel hopefully more

supported and able to get into that vulnerable space, like ride that

edge, get into that spook house.

I really love that idea.

Cause to me, when we are operating from a place of safety, It helps us access

those, the more vulnerable sides, just knowing that, you know, we can, we can

come back to home base and we can always kind of touch back into a place where we,

you know, we don't have to live there.

We just go visit it once in a while.

Yeah, I think that's totally true.

That's what I really that's what I hope.

And that's, I think for my own, like in thinking about this podcast and in talking

with you and, you know, interested in knowing that I was gonna be recording

with you today, I was sort of thinking like, okay, Do I, should it be me to

stand on the artist soap box and talk about anti-racism as a white person?

And I think the answer that I came up with and I'm I'm sitting with is

like, yeah, I should take on labor so that it's not all on people of color.

And yet I know that like, there's no way for me to end this call and

have like done the right thing.

It's just about continuing conversation.

And so I think that that connects into.

That idea of like, yep.

That's the space that I'm trying to create.

And I really hope that it feels that way to everyone in my classroom.

And, you know, if it doesn't, then it's just committing to

having those conversations about how to shift that more.

And that's, you know, I'm, I'm deeply grateful to my student who

mentioned this book to me and was like, you should look into this.

I was like, yeah, thank you for.

Thank you for passing that along and now let's, you know, that was

a great conversation and let's just have more conversations.

Yeah.

And

we'll be sure to share a link to that book in our show notes.

And we really appreciate you sharing that resource with our listeners.

And it's been a true pleasure to get to talk with you today.

Thank you so much for being here, Isabel.

Likewise, thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate your asking.

studio based in North Carolina.

Artist soapbox produces original scripted audio fiction and an ongoing interview

podcast about the creative process.

We cultivate aspiring audio Dramatists and producers, and we partner with

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