Tamara Kissane: 00:00:04

This is Artist Soapbox. Through interviews and original scripted audio fiction, we deliver stories that speak to your hearts and your minds.

Juliana Finch: 00:00:23

Hi Soapboxers.. It's your pal Juliana. Today I get to talk to my friend, Tori Grace Nichols, about writer's block and taking care of yourself creatively and spiritually and all that great stuff. Tori Grace Nichols describes themselves as a prismatic performance artist. They can be seen performing drag as G Cleft at the House of Cox and causing good trouble around Durham, North Carolina, as a cultural organizer and stand-up comedian. Grace also wrote the audio dramas Stretchy Shorts and Crocodile Twins right here on Artist Soapbox. So you can check those out. And they, co-created a short documentary called Call Me Harriet Tubman about their friend Muffin who founded the North Carolina community bail fund Durham. Grace also hosts and produces a podcast, called Go with Grace in which they discuss the impact of white Christian supremacy on our daily lives for the organization Soulfire. They are an adoptee from the Philippines and identify as queer gender queer, trans, and disabled, and on a personal note, Grace and I get to talk every week where we are accountability buddies for each other's creative process. And it's such a delight to bring to you one of those conversations that we have with each other privately every week to a broader audience. So I hope you will enjoy this interview with Tori Grace Nichols. So, hi Tori Grace Nichols. Thanks for joining me today. I'm so excited to talk to you,

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:01:53

Juliana Finch. Great to talk to you also.

Juliana Finch: 00:01:56

So this series that I'm doing is all about creative lulls and what some people might call writer's block. Tell me about how you feel about that term or that part of the creative cycle. Have you experienced it and. What does that feel like for you?

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:02:14

Well, I automatically imagine like the worst parts of it where I'm just like curled up in a ball and bed and there are like deadlines and stuff. I'm like, I can't do it. Yes. I feel like I've, I have definitely experienced this and there are certainly moments where I feel. More okay. With the ups and downs and just let myself flow. And there are other moments where. Uh, I guess the depression cycle has started and it's harder to pull myself out of. Yeah.

Juliana Finch: 00:02:54

You've been writing for many years as I have. And do you notice a kind of pattern about it? Does it seem random? How does, how does it hit you when it hits?

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:03:05

I think I feel the blocks the most when I feel like the stakes are really high and. That could be like an actual deadline or it could be sort of self-imposed or self-created like, I'm really, I'm really excited about something, but somehow I've worked myself up into a dread about completing a thing. And so. It's really interesting how the brain works that way. Like, I could be really excited about something, but then it just feels like I'm just taking such a huge risk. And so they have to sort of be mindful of the anxiety that comes along with that.

Juliana Finch: 00:03:46

Do you think that that's related, like wanting it to be. Like you think it's related to a type of perfectionism around it. If it's something you're really excited about, you want it to be as good as the thing in your head is. And that feels like a lot of pressure.

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:03:59

Oh yeah. And again, it feels kind of strange because if it's something I'm excited about, you know, it should feel as you feel good, but I think, I think it's also stemming from things that we probably all struggle with, but like, you know, believing in ourselves believing that our work is worthy and that people are gonna also be excited about it. And so I feel like that's a natural anxiety to when, when we are putting ourselves out there and it feels like a matter of just kind of staying in, check with that. And also. Learning and practicing a detachment of sorts. Tell

Juliana Finch: 00:04:41

me about that. Like what works for you when you're trying to release that grip on, on worrying about what people will think about it, or if it's going to be as good as you want it to be. What's what's helpful. How do you detach from that?

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:04:54

Most recently, for me, it's been connected with acting and acting endeavors and just. Recognizing that I did my work and I did my best and things are, are going to be what they're going to be. And oh, and just allowing myself to be even disappointed about something and recognizing that, that type of feeling is okay and yo, and then like balancing with, there are lots of opportunities out there and what is mine will be mine. And. I can be there. There are many other things to be excited about in the future, but it's okay to be a little, a little disheartened and, and, uh, needing to kind of cope with that in the moment.

Juliana Finch: 00:05:41

So really just giving yourself time to be like, this feels like crap right now. And that's okay. And not trying to push that away too soon.

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:05:49

Yeah. I think like, particularly if, depending on people's approach to work, if it's like. If people are believing in things like manifestation or femifestation as it has been reframed sometimes. Yes. I think it depends on how people are approaching their work or trying to be mindful about their work, but sometimes there's this pressure to think positively all the time. You know, think towards your opportunities all the time, which is, which is a general good suggestion and to not dwell on the things that are discouraging, but I've noticed for myself, it's like, it sometimes feels like a bottleneck or a tensing up. Cause I'm like, like forcing myself to think positively when actually I feel pretty sad that I didn't get a gig that I was excited about. And yes, Like you said, it's kind of like just allowing the full range of emotions as we throw ourselves into this very vulnerable artistic process.

Juliana Finch: 00:06:54

I'm so glad you said that too, because also just being writers, being artists means that we do have to explain. The full range of human emotion. And if we're gritting our teeth through trying to like be positive all the time, then you're right. That is, uh, that's artificial. And it's, it causes a tension and maybe limits what we can actually express and do with our writing. I also noticed that you talked about acting, so obviously you're not just a writer, you're doing acting you've also written and helped produce a podcast for Artist Soapbox and tell me about switching between your different art forms. When do you do that? When one is feeling like it maybe needs more attention, or if you hit a low and one, do you kind of switch to the other or is everything happening all the time?

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:07:43

That reminds me of that movie. That's coming out soon. I think it's actually called everything everywhere, all over. Yes. What about it? Oh, it seems so trippy. And like an expression of my spiritual life. That's a different conversation. Well, in general, I am so interested in all aspects of production and creativity that. I've really had to learn to compartmentalize a little bit, and to also be clear about our role in a certain production and really be intentional about switching those hats. And so I can always appreciate working with a team. I work best in collaboration, I think, and people who can kind of help me set those boundaries and help me clarify a role. So yeah, I, I really enjoy having those different roles, however, because it, I think it can really fill out a work when you can think about what is the experience of an actor of the director, of, of the writer. And really sort of bring that sense of collaboration to a piece is really exciting to me.

Juliana Finch: 00:08:59

Yeah. I think it's really useful to have been on the other side of, for example, an audio drama, which we both, we both been on both sides of, and I think it's really helpful to be able to put yourself if you are the writer or the director in the chair or the booth of the actor and think about what their experience is going to be like on the other side. And I think it can help make you a better writer if you understand what an actor might be looking for in a

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:09:24

script. Yes. That's been extremely helpful to have had that experience. And so like, Knowing what, what might feel the most clear. And then of course, it's also, there's a learning curve with everything. So getting feedback from people is really key and getting feedback from other writers and the actors of sort of what made sense and what didn't is really helpful to build that skill.

Juliana Finch: 00:09:52

And you mentioned how much you enjoy collaboration. I really do too. And it's something that's a little bit newer in my life, but I've noticed that. It helps me with accountability, which is something you were kind of alluding to. But it also, if I am in one of these blocked periods or these lulls, having someone to just bounce ideas off of and be playful with is a really great way for me to kind of come out of that period, because I'm also not focused intently on what we were talking about at the beginning of the conversation of like, I'm the solely responsible person for this thing being good. And the pressure has really taken off and it becomes more about playing with each other. Is that something that you experienced when you're collaborating? Does it help you? Let's say if you are in a low, is collaboration something that you might turn to to help with that? Oh

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:10:40

yes. It's exactly what you said. It really takes the pressure off. And since I've also spent a lot of my life in sort of organizer, social justice movements, a more collaborative community approach also feels anti-oppressive, it feels. Uh, combating of these white supremacists capitalist notions that says we have to do everything by ourselves and we have to be the best at everything and we are in competition with everyone. And, uh, it feels like point to me, of art of creating is to take us out of those mentalities. That can be really damaging. So, yes, I really appreciate the people in my life who are willing to talk through things with me, definitely support accountability. I definitely have a tendency to just wander or not be super responsible to myself. So it's, it's, it's really helpful. To just be in community with others who are, or who are also interested in creating and can help with, we can help each other build our projects.

Juliana Finch: 00:11:53

Absolutely. And I love what you said about taking the competition out of it. I've always been really resistant to the idea of um, you know, my industry as a singer songwriter has been very competitive in the past and it's just not fun. I want to get on stage and play with people and have a good time. And I always try to remind myself, that's why we call it playing. You know, it's supposed to be fun. And anytime I've been in a situation where it's very intensely competitive, you know, either a literal competition or people just vying to have the adoration of the audience or something like that, it's felt really. Disconnected for me, from what I want to be doing up there. And collaborative experience really does take that off the table. You also mentioned being really responsible to yourself, and I would love to segue that into talking about how to care for yourself. How do you care for yourself when you're in one of these phases? When you feel like maybe you don't have ideas or you just not feeling like sitting down to do the work, like it's just not showing up. How do you care for. Yourself, physically, mentally, spiritually, but also, you know, to help nurture back that creative process in a way that's not maybe a high pressure, which is what I think a lot of us do to ourselves. If we feel blocked, it's like, no, we gotta, we must work out of the block. And that aggressive approach probably doesn't work very well for most people.

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:13:11

Well, I guess the way to even visualize it is if there's like, you know, a bunch of pent up energy and you've hit a wall. It seems like the energy needs to go elsewhere versus towards the wall that is not moving. So I certainly think about just moving in general, if it it's, you know, just even shifting and eye gaze or your body. All the way to just throwing something on the floor, doing some pushups or something or waiting a whole day, you know, just like giving some work some space. So it's not becoming unfun, right? The genre might not always fit, but you know, creating should also be fun. It should be something that, that gives you life and that you feel good about. That is nourishing. And that is, is not frustrating. So I, I do all of those things take breaks, do pushups. I also, sometimes I think of late I've actually revisited old works work that I felt really good about that. You know, when I got on the other side of it, it was like, dang, I did that. And I'm really proud of what I accomplished. I think it's important to remember. We have accomplished things. And we have evidence that we have accomplished things even in our own body of work. So it's helpful to look back sometimes. And I also look to other other sources. I might listen to a podcast that's connected to something I'm working on or not. I might look to something totally different, but it's really interesting how. If you give some space to your work, you can make connections to a different thing that might give you a different perspective that might freshen the work a little bit.

Juliana Finch: 00:15:06

Yeah. And this, this is where I really want. Listeners to realize that these periods where we're not creating output, it's because there's input happening. And if there's not input happening, then there's synthesis happening. So this, we have to go and experience the world. We have to have experiences in order to write about them. And so there naturally has to be this period where. You know, you made a great point about making connections. We can't make those connections if we don't give them time to happen. And so that period of not generating doesn't mean that there's nothing going on, you know? And like, I love this idea of revisiting stuff that you were proud of in the past, because sometimes it really does feel like what we do is very ephemeral and the process itself is kind of ephemoral. I mean, as evidenced by many books and podcasts, there are about trying to figure out the creative process. I mean, even it's our own job and we still are like, what is going on because it's hard to nail down. And it is so much of a, a, a serial kind of thing that it's nice to be able to look back and say, Oh, yeah. I actually really liked this thing that I made and I can do that again. I did it in the past and I can do it again because I know for me, sometimes it feels like every time I make something it's like, this is the last thing I'm ever going to make this big one, guys,

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:16:28

the pressure, like this is going to be the thing, but again, not, not exactly helpful.

Juliana Finch: 00:16:34

Right. And there's no like destination that you're trying to get to necessarily. Or if there is usually if you get to that goal or that destination. It doesn't feel the way you thought it would feel so, or, or you just then want a different thing. So wanting a specific goal might give you some good direction, but it's not necessarily the reason to create.

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:16:55

And that's like, that's the maybe sometimes contradictory difficult part. That sort of cheesy thing. That's just like embrace the unknown, which, you know, if you've achieved that steadily congratulations. But particularly in the, in the context of our world at this time, like being okay with the unknown feels does not feel attainable and actually feels quite scary. So I think it's okay to. Just be unsettled when you're in a, an a middle place. I would

Juliana Finch: 00:17:30

love to actually talk about the last couple of years. Just a little bit, which is that I think there's been a lot of folks. A lot of artists have really pressured themselves to be creating during this time as though. This is a rest period. And you know, I've said this a bunch of times over the last couple of years, you know, when I see somebody post about like, if you're not writing a novel, what are you doing with your time? And it's like, well, I'm surviving a global tragedy. Yeah. And that actually does take energy as well. So, did you feel pressure to create during this time that was quote unquote off for some people, which I don't think it was time off for most people, lucky you, if it was, but did you feel pressure to make stuff? Were you able to, like, what was your relationship to your work during this time?

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:18:14

Right. I'm remembering some of beginning works being like online drag performances. My drag family was really trying to find a way to uplift people. And so I think we, we sort of answered that call as artists, and then we experienced our own burnout, our ownrecognition that felt forced and difficult for us to sort of be an uplifting source when we are also impacted by the pandemic and everything that was going on. So I feel like I took a little bit of time to sort of sit still and to be, but I'm traditionally kind of a restless person and sort of have to be moving and doing what became different about my work was, was sort of a return to writing. I think I I've been predominantly a performance artist. And so I did take the opportunity of not, not being able to be out in the world to actually go inside myself and, and figure out how I can express that way. And. I think through Artist Soapbox and some others were, I was just given a lot of really great opportunities to write. Yeah. That became an important expression. I'm recognizing more and more how much I, I really love writing and it, and I'm excited to continue expressing myself in that way. And

Juliana Finch: 00:19:44

I'm excited to read and, or. Hear them

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:19:48

and make them out, interact with them and perform in them.

Juliana Finch: 00:19:53

It's been honestly so much fun being able to do some of this stuff remotely as well. And I think that's been on one hand, as you said, I think a lot of us felt pressure, positive pressure to sort of step up and help uplift people during this time. But yet being able to sit back and go, okay, now we also need to cope and need to rest and take care of ourselves in order to have something to give later, but being able to. Take that time to maybe re-examine if there's something else, if there's another art form that you want to get into and something that you might've been neglecting in the past, like you're writing saying, Hey, I'm still here. When you're coming out of a process of low or a time of creating less. I know for me that the process of when it starts to come back has a very specific feeling. And what does that experience like for you when you feel it start to come

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:20:51

back? It feels like focus, which, which is, is hard for me. And. There are also moments. It feels like channeling. Like I finally got the messages that I want to convey and that I am also channel channeling messages that are supposed to be in the world. So it feels very purposeful and, and therefore kind of easy to access. It feels like what I'm doing is important. And, uh, and then there's my dog, Sandy. She,

Juliana Finch: 00:21:30

she also has important

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:21:31

messages. She has her very important messages, which is, um, as the princess diva of the house, she feels neglected how dare we do other things with our lives anyways. Yeah. It's always very exciting when I can feel like I'm back in a flow and, and for me, It probably is supported by like, I've made a clear goal for myself. Like I've created a plan that makes sense for myself as well. And so I'm, I'm moving some stuff forward. Do

Juliana Finch: 00:22:01

you set deadlines for yourself? Even if there is an external. Deadline.

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:22:06

Oh goodness. I'm really trying. I'm like,

Juliana Finch: 00:22:10

there's no right answer.

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:22:12

It's actually so important that we kind of like take ownership of what we want to do in the world. And so I'm really trying. That is particularly I've, I've recently transitioned out of a nonprofit job, a full-time job, and I'll be pursuing full-time creating, moving forward. And so I am my own boss. I am the thing that is going to be creating sustainability for myself. So I'm currently really working on setting those deadlines for myself and taking them seriously for my own sustainability, like I mentioned, but I think to take my. My talent and my creativity seriously as like believing that my work is important and that I have a right to be creating and putting things out in the world.

Juliana Finch: 00:23:02

Do you have a time of day that you feel, and now that you're in charge of your own schedule, you can. Approach your own natural energy flow throughout the day. Is there a time of day that is more for writing and a time of day that's more for something else? Or do you stop and everything you're doing to write when you feel like writing, how does, how does that work for you? Do you think

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:23:22

there are, there are certainly moments where if I have inspiration about something. I will do my best to try to document that. And I am the best at that with jokes. Hmm. I have to sort of a running note in my phone where I can write a joke idea down. And that is also something that I learned from Tamara and, uh, really, uh, writing for the last pod podcast project, which is, if something seems interesting to you write it down, then things don't have to be in order. And that was really helpful that if I had an idea about a character, it would be cool if this character did this, just write it down. So then at some point it's material to incorporate, at some point

Juliana Finch: 00:24:10

I write that way too, very sort of out of order, and collaborating with Tamara on Jesus Pancake, she learned very quickly that I am like, I don't know where this scene goes, but here's the scene I wrote. And maybe you can find a place to put it, which I, you know, she was very merciful about that, but I did pressure myself initially to try to write a story in chronological order and realize that that is not. How it works for me, at least, with, with scripts and screenplays and things like that. I'm like, well, here's a scene that has fully formed in my head and I have to write it down and I'll figure it out later. And I think taking off the pressure of having to be a certain structure is super helpful.

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:24:46

Yeah. And it, it makes it, you know, more, again, it should be fun. That being said, I am trying to cultivate the better habits that will just personally make me feel better in my body and help the work keep going. So, you know, trying to do things that kind of get myself in a good head space before trying to do any creative work is really helpful. And I feel like I'm also like transitioning my own connection to time and things like that. Cause I, I think I have been more of a night owl, which I let myself do that, particularly if I can't sleep well and I'm just going to be up doing things, but trying to just recognize that sleep is really important. Yeah, myself on a schedule where I'm kind of like prepping myself for the day and then taking care of whatever kind of annoying admin, more worky, worky things I have to do. And then that way. Things can be spacious and I can just kind of let myself go into them for more time. I love

Juliana Finch: 00:25:59

that phrasing of it being spacious. And yeah, when you do have like an annoying admin thing sitting, it's very hard to let yourself relax into the process and the space that you need for that. On that note, I would love, you're talking about cultivating good habits. I would love for you to leave us with a tip or a practical thing or a fun thing, whatever strikes you as something that you hope that someone experiencing a lull in their creative process might try to either take care of themselves during that time or two. You know, court inspiration again, what is something that has worked for you in the past that you might suggest to someone else? Um,

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:26:43

again, this might not be available for everyone, but for me, the guidance that I've gotten most recently, and actually from a, a friend who has a psychic medium. So my creative work is also really spiritual for me. The messages I got were that it should be fun. And if I'm not having fun, then you know, that's what needs to shift. And so I'd say, allow yourself the breaks and the reset that help you enjoy your work and help you recognize that your work is important. And. That just like I said before, you have every right to be creating and sharing with the world. And when it's fun and purposeful for you, it'll be fun and purposeful for others.

Juliana Finch: 00:27:32

I think that is awesome advice. Thank you so much for taking some time to talk with me today, grace, and I know it's going to be relatable and helpful for our listeners, and I'm sure I will see you again very soon because we are actually accountability, buddies, accountability buddies for each other as well. And we have a little writing date every week and that's probably something I would also recommend to people is. And find a bud who can, even if you're just texting them to say, Hey, I'm going to write for 20 minutes. So when we get off this call, grace, I'm going to go right for half an hour. I'm telling you now.

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:28:11

Okay, wonderful. I'm there with you. All right.

Juliana Finch: 00:28:15

Thank you. Thank you so much. And I'm excited to see

Tori Grace Nichols: 00:28:18

what's next for you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Tamara Kissane: 00:28:26

Established in 2017 Artist Soapbox is a podcast production studio based in North Carolina. Artist Soapbox produces original scripted audio fiction and an ongoing interview podcast about the creative process. We cultivate aspiring audio Dramatists and producers, and we partner with organizations and individuals to create new audio content. For more information and ways to support our work, check out artistsoapbox.org, or find us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. The Artist Soapbox theme song is ashes by Juliana Finch.