This is Artist Soapbox.

Through interviews and original scripted audio fiction.

We deliver stories that speak to your hearts and your minds.

Hey soap boxers.

It's your pal, Juliana.

I am so excited that I got to talk to my friend, Jess Klein for today's episode.

Jess is an incredible songwriter singer performer, who has toured the

world with her unbelievable music.

She's been in the game long enough to know that creative

cycles are normal and natural.

And I just really love the way that she approaches that with a kind of

ease that I hope this episode will help you realize in your writing process.

Now Jess just finished producing an album.

That's coming out in the fall called In the Arms of a Song.

So at the time of this recording, it's not out yet, but you'll be able to

get it very soon and she's starting to tour again, like a lot of us are, so I

hope that you'll be able to catch her

live and in person and get to see her unbelievable work.

You can find her@wwwdotjessklein.com on YouTube and Instagram.

She is Ms.

Jess Klein.

That's M S J E S S K L E I N.

You should do whatever you can to find Jess and listen and have a good cry.

And I know you will enjoy this episode.

Hello, Jess Klein, thanks so much for joining me today.

Thank you for having me.

This is one of those fun situations where I get talk to somebody that

I used to see in real life a lot.

but we're talking on, on the internet about 10 miles apart from each other.

Yeah, that's fine.

This is normal now.

Yeah.

How are you doing?

I'm doing pretty good.

I feel.

Got a lot of, um, exciting sort of creative stuff that I'm doing.

And then the world is not making me happy.

I played a show Friday night and I sang my songs about the

world and it made me feel better.

Yeah.

I always find that those times when I least want to play.

Yeah.

Is the time that I most need to play.

Like once I do that show where I'm like, God, I really don't wanna get

up here and do this thing tonight.

And then after it, I'm like, thank goodness I did that thing.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

I know that feeling.

Yeah.

So you're, you're writing again and playing again and working on stuff.

How is it feeling.

It's good.

I actually, I just finished an album a couple months ago, so I haven't been

like actively writing songs recently.

I've been doing a lot of journaling and sometimes that turns into something

and sometimes it just keeps the flow going from my mind to the paper, but

I have been loving, performing a lot.

It just feels really good to just sing and like, Let the

sound out and that feels good.

That feels like, I feel like I'm starting to remember why I do this.

yeah.

And I'm, I'm glad you brought up your album because I think something that.

It doesn't get talked about a lot when starting out as a songwriter

is that, you know, there's a time to write and prepare and then a time to

record and then a time to go perform those songs that you've put out.

Yeah.

And it's, it's this long process.

By the time you're done making the album, you do need kind of a break.

There's sort of a natural break that happens with writing new stuff.

and you shift into this other gear of like focusing on performing the

songs, is that your usual experience?

That's certainly what happens to me.

It definitely, I feel like, yeah, like I kind of need a break from

all that soul searching and digging stuff up and, you know, tweaking language.

And it's just like a really different part of the process

for me than the performance part.

And they both are equally important.

And, um, a friend of mine songwriter named Ray Bonneville called.

He called this time when you're not actively writing, he called it fueling.

And I, I just always really like that, cuz it's like, you're just kind.

You're just doing other things you're like absorbing life experiences or you're

just sort of observing or whatever it is that you do when you're not writing.

It's it's like an important part of the yeah.

Of the cycle.

Yeah.

It's still an active part.

It's not actually this like inert thing that it feels like sometimes.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, for me, you know, often, I mean, it's, it's a little

different if I'm trying to write for a specific project, but often.

I will be surprised by the strength of an idea that will come along.

When I wasn't trying to write, it'll just suddenly be like a wave of emotion.

And it's like, now I need to sit down and put some words to this, or.

You don't always have to be sort of like banging down the door every

day, trying to get to the ideas.

If you've trained yourself to receive them, like they're gonna come back.

Yeah.

Talk more about that process of like receptivity, like

you've been at this while.

And so you probably kind of live in it subconsciously a little bit at this.

what was it like to develop that skill?

Because I think there's a difference between I'm sitting around and

waiting for inspiration to strike.

Yeah.

Which, which maybe is not very effective usually versus this, this

receptivity that you're talking about.

I guess one of the things that I do, and I don't, it's like

a chicken and egg situation, but I tend to like really observe human

nature and take note of other people's habits and emotions and stuff.

And also, I would also sort of naturally do that on a large scale.

Like, what is society doing right now?

Or different parts of society doing and act, how are they acting?

To me, that's sort of like the, putting the soil, like putting the right soil in

the garden of, of writing or songwriting because I'm watching my fellow humans.

Like, I'm always just sort of like watch watching them, myself,

like, what am I feeling today?

To me, that's sort of a step that lays the groundwork for writing to happen.

Yeah, like you said, like it's not passive really, but it's, I'm not

trying to force it into anything.

It just sort of eventually I'll have like a, a clearly formed like thesis

about what I'm observing and then it can be kind of put into words.

There's a lot of mixed metaphors in there, but, um, yeah.

we got, we got it.

It's like the garden and the you're building a house and it,

yeah, it's really interesting.

I mean, I think, I feel like it's taken me a long time to be okay with the part where

I wasn't producing something actively.

Like, I think that I felt like I had a lot to prove when I first started out and I

mean, first start out, like probably all through my twenties and thirties, I felt

like I had had to constantly be proving something like, I can still do this.

I'm gonna write one that's as good as the last one.

Or, you know, . Yeah.

Like, cuz I think every time you write something that

you really like, there's a, there's this like voice in the background.

That's like, that's it.

That's the last one.

That's all you get.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean.

If there's anyone listening that's sort of older or is starting out and

is a little older, like to me, things sometimes come more slowly now, or

it does take longer because I'm not personally living in the kind of drama

that I was when I was younger and right.

Everything was just sort of like at 10 all the time, emotionally for me in my.

and, you know, so that's also something to sort of note in your, in your sort

of life, lifetime of creativity and, and writing, you know, I think it's okay.

If it takes longer to create your sort of work, when you're older,

it's gonna have, it's gonna have that depth of experience behind it.

Oh, totally.

I think that's like a great reminder too, because yeah, the stakes are not

as high on a daily basis, you know?

Yeah.

Not everything is like a pop love song.

right in your life.

right.

I was recently rereading, you mentioned that you journal and I've, I've

journaled since I was a kid and I actually keep almost all my old journals

and, and I'll go back through to, to find stuff to write about sometimes.

Yeah.

I'm like, well, let me see if there's a little seed of something in here.

That'll set me off and rereading my journals from my early twenties

recently was a very humbling experience.

not just in terms of like, you know, my skill or lack

thereof writing, but just, yeah.

The drama like, oh my gosh.

Not, not to belittle any 20 somethings that are listening, but just to tell

you that, like, Extreme emotion does chill out eventually for most people.

yeah,

I could.

You couldn't pay me to go back and be 20 again.

I would not do it.

No.

How do you use journaling in your life?

You know, well, it's interesting now that we said all

that stuff about being younger and everything being dramatic and then being

older and things aren't as dramatic.

Like I still need to journal almost every day.

cause of the way my emotions are.

I have to kind of, I mean, not, you know, it's not all the time, every,

you know, all the time, but if there's a lot going on in the world or in my

life, I typically, my typical process is like, Definitely at night before bed.

And then sometimes during the day I just sort of have to have like a brain dump.

I have to let all the feelings have words and be out of me and onto the page.

And then it's like, I can do something with them further if I

want, but if I didn't, at least it's not rattling around inside of me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that is a resource that like you come back to for song ideas.

Do I come back to, that's a really good question.

Like I, I had put this question up on social media, I don't

know, six or eight months ago.

And I was like, you might have been one of the people that responded, but I was

like, do you save your old journals?

You know, and go, and all these people were like, you have to save them.

You have to go back through them.

There's gold there.

Almost never do that.

I mean, maybe I sh maybe I should, maybe I will.

And maybe I should.

And I mean, I know a lot of people do.

I think, I often feel like if I got through that, whatever

that was, I just wanna move on.

But yes, you know, it is, that's definitely a tool that

a lot of people recommend.

Yeah.

But it sounds like your approach is too,

which is that the journaling itself, the process of doing it.

Yeah.

Is the thing that's like that writer's muscle in shape and

also like keeping you on kind.

A plane where you're receptive to stuff.

And so maybe you don't actually need to go back and read it

because the process is the thing.

And not necessarily that you're using it to generate ideas.

Yeah.

Um, I definitely know, like, you know, I have a meditation practice

and I also journal and if I haven't done either of those things for like

a week or so, I definitely feel it in my, you know, I feel squirrly yeah.

yeah.

In a way that I don't, if I'm consistent with that.

Yeah.

Like I think of writing an inspiration often.

You wanna keep your muscles sort of loose and warmed up for me,

that practice is the journaling.

So that if it, if an idea, when an idea strikes, I'm sort of

warmed up and I'm used to writing.

I like that you said the phrase like used to writing because

it is a thing that can to use the muscle metaphor again, that can kind of

atrophy if you don't do it regularly.

Even if you are very experienced and you've released a number

of albums and you've toured nationally, you know, it's not just

a thing that happens to beginners.

It's a thing that everybody needs to do.

Totally, totally.

I mean, for me, it's like, yeah, if I don't, if I haven't been writing

for a while and then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna try and dig in here.

And.

You know, work on an album.

It takes weeks and weeks for me to get to the point where I feel like

I'm creating something I might save.

And that doesn't mean all the other things weren't valuable, but it just, it is it.

Yeah, definitely muscle that you have to warm up for one way or another.

Cause to me, it's like layers need again, this is a total mixed metaphor, but

it's almost layers have to get peeled off and all that stuff you've been, you

know, living with and living through and the sort of periphery of your life

and you know, this annoyance and this other thing over here, it's like all sort

of has to get honored somehow and then put aside, and then you might get that.

To me, I always have to go through that to get to like the deeper core.

That feels like a compelling thing.

That is a song that's like the core of the song.

When you're getting through that, are you doing that through

writing songs that you then don't keep?

Or usually what, what does that look like?

Yeah, it usually looks like songs where I have an, you

know, it's sort of like, oh, you can kind of hear something in there.

Like.

If I were to, so producer that I've worked with a lot, I often will play him things

that I'm working on and get his feedback.

Cuz I trust him to tell me like, think you can do better or you know, whatever.

And often it'll be like, , it'll be like, that's pretty like, you

know, and to me it's like, it can feel really powerful in the moment.

And then if I go back and listen to it, it's like, I didn't totally get

to the heart of the matter there.

Like there's something there's something deeper or better I could do with that.

And so that song probably won't be kept because if I'm aware that there's

something deeper to get to, I'd rather try and find the sort you know, deeper

and more compelling thing typically.

And then having that as a starting point is like clearing the path

for that other song that needs to happen.

Yeah.

And sometimes it's really annoying.

Like I, I did.

, I'm part of a.

Well, I've been pretty lazy about it lately, but, and part of a song gang,

which is, you know, like weekly, this songwriter friend will send out prompt and

we're supposed to complete a song around that prompt, that phrase or whatever,

by the next end of the next week.

And at some point while I was writing for this last album,

the prompt was greatest hits.

And so I wrote this whole story song about this guy who follows

his favorite band and he is.

Kind of lost in the rest of his life, but when he sees them on

stage, he'll follow them anywhere.

Cuz they're just speaking to him, you know, and I played it for my producer

and he was like, And I thought it was really great, you know, and then I

played it for him and he was like, you know, this is a really good narrative,

but there's like one line in there that I think that you could write a whole

other song around and when oh, wow.

And he, and he told me what the line was.

I was like, oh, okay.

That's the really good idea.

But I was also really annoyed cause I was like, I don't wanna have to fucking

write this, you know, another song, like I wrote you a song, you know, I wrote.

But, you know, I made myself do it and I now that's the title

track of the new album, because it was, it was way more compelling.

It was personal, first of all.

And it was like about my life as an artist kind of.

And, um, so I mean, I don't know.

It's like sometimes I just feel like it's such a strange thing to be an artist or

to live as an artist or creative person, cuz it's like, I don't know, you're just

really just signing up to do more work.

Like it's just, it's not, it's never done, you know, it's sort of

like, I mean, it does go in phases.

It's incredibly satisfying.

It's incredibly personal.

It's incredibly crazy making sometimes, but I don't know.

It's just, obviously for those of us who write or create, it's just

like, we, we just have to do it.

It's some kind of.

It's to me also, it's like cleansing.

I feel like it, it's a way to cleanse my, my soul somehow.

Yeah.

And I think there's also an interesting thing about this.

This thing we do, which is that a lot of us who are songwriters

and performers specifically.

We have this sort of introversion that's necessary to be a writer in some ways.

Yeah.

And then the performance part requires doing extroversion, even if we're not

identified as extroverts, you know?

Yeah, totally.

And so there's this like balance of, of how can I honor the really interior parts

of the process that are, that necessitate me being alone and having quiet time and

being really reflective and then turn around and translate those feelings.

And this is something that you're so good at when, when I see you live

of like taking that internal life and externalizing it in a way that

an audience can access that also.

And like when people see a Jess Klein show, they're like powerfully overcome

by emotions, you know, I've seen, I love going to one of your shows and watching

an audience watch you because you're just really externalizing that process.

And I think the part of it that is a skill is to do that and

really give it to the audience.

Sometimes if you're too internal, you're just watching somebody stare at their

shoes and have their own feelings.

And they're not actually like letting the audience in yeah.

To that process.

So there's like an interesting balance that I see when I watch you

of you're really showing people, you know, that internal process and

you're letting it be theirs also like letting them have yeah their thing.

So how do you like protect your interior life when you, when

you're up there on the stage?

Like putting your heart out there?

That's it.

Thank you.

That was really kind of to say.

Yeah, let's see.

You know, a couple things came to mind when you were saying that one

was that I didn't always protect.

I think like my inner life, there was a time when I was living in New York city.

I was writing and then recording this album called city garden.

But I, I didn't, it was like I was putting so much, I was somehow putting so much out

in the performances that I didn't someone.

And then I've kind of trained myself to see the stage as

like a safe place where I,

I get to decide what happens.

It's my choice to how much I let out.

I don't really know how to describe what the shift was that I made,

except that it just started to feel more about empowerment than exposure.

like, it just was like, I started to.

Look at it as I'm gonna feel good if I give my all to this, because these

are my words and why wouldn't I just stand up there and, and sing them.

Like, I really believe them and like use my voice and my body and the

things I say to the audience to just embrace like the whole of who I am.

I mean, like there's parts of me, I think that only ever come out on this stage.

I dunno.

mm-hmm , which is probably not uncommon.

It just feels more and more like, uh, I don't know, maybe it's just been getting

older or maybe just finding, like finding more security and safety in my real life,

relationships and situations has helped.

It helped me know that what I do on stage is my choice.

And it's not like this desperation that maybe was driving me when I was younger.

Yeah.

There's definitely a difference between I would say like early career

when you're getting up there and you're like, I hope people like me.

Right.

It's not that we don't hope people like us, you know, in

what we're doing, but yeah.

You get up there and that's your space.

Yeah.

And you're inviting them.

You're inviting them in, not the other way around.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's exactly it.

I think that's really powerful and it's, it feels really

good to be on a stage doing that, but I also think it feels good in the

audience to see a performer like that.

The audience also feels cared for.

if the person, if the person on stage seems like they feel safe and confident,

then the audience is like, good.

We're in good hands.

It's we're gonna have a good time, you know?

Yeah.

I think I totally agree with that.

I like to see performances where the, yeah, I like to see that.

And I mean, I guess I've, I've started to think of it.

Like I wanna be up here giving people permission to feel what they feel.

And the only way I know how to do that is just to do it myself.

Well, I wanna shift gears a tiny bit to talk about whether

your experience of writing has changed based on living in North Carolina.

Now you moved here from Austin a few years ago.

Yeah.

And we moved, we moved to this area around the same time.

Oh yeah.

That's we moved?

Oh yeah.

So we, we came here at the same.

and I wonder if, if you notice anything about your process

being influenced by place at all?

Mm.

I think that I've had to sort of, I mean, I prefer living here.

Like our life is much better in most ways, living here, but creatively.

I've had to sort of figure out what works I've had to be more proactive in

terms of figuring out what works for me.

Versus I think in Austin, I was so like submerged in a culture of

songwriting that it was, I didn't even have to think about it that much.

It was just like, I could go out every night and see someone who would

write at least pretty good songs, you know, mm-hmm , if not great.

And here, you know, the music scene is sort.

Split up more, you know, there's Durham and there's chapel hill and there's

Carrboro and there's Raleigh, and I've had to sort of figure out more proactively.

I think what worked for me and part of that for me, was getting

back in touch with my producer from Austin, cuz I knew that he would

give me the feedback I needed.

I was having trouble finding like the sort of feedback from another songwriter that

I would trust fully maybe with my work.

But other than that, I,

I think it's given me like a, maybe a broader range of sounds to draw from.

I mean, I, I don't know, you know, listen to a lot more maybe gospel

influence stuff since living here.

Yeah.

Um, and bluegrass, for sure.

So like you can't, you can't escape it, you know, living here and, and,

and also just the sort of there.

I mean, it's pretty broad strokes, but there's like just like a sweetness and

a softness here that I don't associate with Austin, which was kind of has that.

I don't, you know, whatever, whatever Texas is it.

I mean, there, there are a lot of really cool people in Austin

and people can be very friendly.

But if you think about the landscape it's harsher and

I think mostly just like, as a human being, like, it's

just easier to live here.

that makes any sense.

The climate is easier and the, the cause of living is easier

and people are friendlier and the pace is a little slower and

yeah, that, that is great.

Cuz it ties into something that I feel like I talk about a lot just because

I'm pretty passionate about it, which is that like this idea of struggle being

idealized as part of artistic process.

And we have this, like this idea of the starving artist, which I hate.

Yeah.

And I think it can torture us.

We can torture ourselves, you know, of thinking that we're supposed to

be like struggling, but I don't do very good work when I'm struggling.

Something else I've noticed as I've gone on further with my

work is like, actually, if I.

Can afford groceries and rent and I feel emotionally stable.

I wanna sit down and play guitar more, you know?

yeah, totally.

It's actually better.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so like prioritizing being in a place where you feel cared for.

Yeah.

However, that means by the environment, by the relationships, by the house

that you're in or whatever yeah.

Is actually like really beneficial to the creative process, I think.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Yeah.

You know, we do, we really love, we love to read about the struggles that made this

person, who they are, you know, or made this person write this thing or whatever.

Um, but yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I guess I feel like it sometimes takes me longer to complete

something now that my life is good.

mm-hmm but I also think I'm not like the love and the

comfort I have just to like go.

Yeah.

I don't think, I don't think that.

The myth of the tortured artist, like is sustainable.

Mm-hmm yeah.

Like actually I'd like to be medicated for my mental health issues.

I am better when that happens.

Yes.

Yeah.

So when you're in a period of time, when you're not writing, it sounds like you

have a pretty good handle on and have like befriended that place a little bit more.

How are you, how do you care for your creative process when

you're, what does it feel like?

Do you recognize when one of those periods is happening or maybe once

you're in it, and then how do you take care of yourself during that time so

that you don't have, you know, that thing that we talked about a few

minutes ago of like, oh, that's gonna be my last song that I've ever written.

Yeah.

I, you know, I feel like that shift only, maybe only happened to me really recently.

I think that because maybe because of the pandemic or whatever, I've just

finally learned if I'm able to rest, like, I'm just, I'm just gonna rest.

Like, that is a good thing to do for my creative muscles for my body.

And I think.

It can kind of open up, like I said, like we were talking before about receptivity.

It's like just allowing myself to see what inspires me just in terms of listening.

It's almost like if you, yeah.

Like if you think of finishing an album as a completion of a cycle,

then it's like, you're just like born anew and it's like, oh, what,

what could be inspiring to me now?

I can just, I can just allow my mind to be totally open to

what just, what am I drawn to?

Like one thing I've sort of been drawn to kind of off and on in recent

years, but feels really prominent to me now is like my ancestry.

I'm really interested in my connection to my ancestors like that.

You know, they were Russian Jews and they escaped, you know,

persecution and death to come here.

And then they built a relatively safe life and I've reaped the benefits of that.

And that is a big part of how I define like my motivation to do activist

things or to like speak to, I hate to say like social issues or something,

but just like the shit we have going on, like the repression and everything.

I've just had the time to just be like, what is drawing my interest now?

And this is something, this is like an idea that's really inspiring me right now.

So I just, because I'm not in the midst of like an intense cycle of writing.

I just have the freedom to just sort of wander, you know, mentally

until I stumble on something.

That's interesting.

And that's exciting to me.

yeah.

I love the, this like reframing of that time as

just like wide open possibility.

Cuz that does feel exciting.

Yeah.

And like, oh, it's okay.

If nothing is happening right now, because that means anything could happen.

Totally.

Yeah, totally.

That's right.

And I mean, I feel like it's so, especially.

For people in creative careers,

it's like a big stumbling block for me is when I'm like, well, when

is, when am I gonna hear back from this person about this opportunity?

And when am I gonna hear about whether this is a possibility in my job, in my

career of art, but all that time that I might, you know, spend wondering when is

someone else gonna step in and tell me whether or not I can do this career thing.

That's time when I get to be instead, I could be just like, Hmm, what would

I like thinking about, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love it.

Well, Jess, this has been so awesome.

Thank you so much for talking to me today.

My pleasure.

Thank you.

Y'all Jess's newest album In the Arms of a Song is coming out in the fall.

And I can't wait to hear it.

And if Jess is coming through your town, you definitely need to go catch a show

so you can cry in a really great way.

And can't wait to see you play live again, Jess.

Thank you.

Likewise.

I love The Other Girls I just love that song so much.

Oh, thank you so much.

I appreciate it.

Yeah.

studio based in North Carolina.

Artist soapbox produces original scripted audio fiction and an ongoing interview

podcast about the creative process.

We cultivate aspiring audio Dramatists and producers, and we partner with

organizations and individuals to create new audio content for more

information and ways to support our work.

Check out artistsoapbox.org or find us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter.

The artist soapbox theme song is ashes by Juliana Finch