Tamara Kissane: 00:00:08

This is artist soapbox. Through interviews and original scripted audio fiction. We deliver stories that speak to your hearts and your minds

Juliana Finch: 00:00:21

Hi Soapboxers, it's Juliana. I am thrilled to bring you a talk I got to have with my friend, Kayla Cagan. She is the author of Piper Perish and Art Boss from Chronicle books, two wonderful young adult books. But you know what? Adult adults can read them too, cuz I have, and I love them. Piper Perish received universal praise and starred reviews from ALA book list as well as being an Amazon bestseller, Barnes and noble best book of the month. And it made the indie next choice list. So basically Kayla is kind of a big deal. Kayla also has published comics and essays to as sorted collections, including girl crush scene, Womanthology unite and take over, stories inspired by the Smiths. She is happily married to screenwriter, Josh Cagan and they live in California. You can find Kayla on Instagram at, at Kayla underscore Kagan underscore writer, and that's K a Y L a and Cagan is C a G a N. We had a wonderful talk about writer's block, really practical ways to overcome it. She's gonna give you a ton of resources and places to start when writing doesn't feel great or accessible, she is just a delight. And I know you'll have as good a time listening as I did getting to talk to her. Here's Kayla Cagan. So Kayla, I'm so excited. You're able to join me today on artist soapbox. Thank you so much for coming on my little podcast.

Kayla Cagan: 00:01:56

It's a pleasure. I am so excited to be here. This is wonderful. I'm really happy to do this. Thank you for

Juliana Finch: 00:02:01

having me for listeners who might not know your work. Can you tell me a little bit about your novels and other work that you're up

Kayla Cagan: 00:02:09

to? Sure. So my name's Kayla Cagan and I started off basically in the theater and. A very long time in the theater in mostly in New York and have always kind of been writing and mostly doing plays in the theater. And then kind of slowly started trusting myself the transfer into trying novel writing. So on and off, I've been working on novels for a very long time, but I, in the last few years have published two of them through Chronicle books and. For young adults. So they're YA books, but anyone can read them. I always like to say that because some people feel weird, shame over reading young, younger material, but they're both about a young artist named Piper Perish, who is an artist and an emerging kind of artist. And part of the reason I wrote the books is because I love reading biographies and memoirs and remembrances of artists. And I love hearing about their young lives, about how they became who they are. I really like to see the seeds of who someone became, but I often feel like there's not a lot of female artists that we get to hear about, like, can tell you about the young life of Matisse or Picasso, maybe Frida Kahlo, because she's, you know, a hot number and, and people will like always wanna know about Frida Kahlo but there's a lot of artists who are out there who aren't. And I kind of was like, what if there was a young teenage girl Picasso right now that nobody knew about? And I started writing. Kind of this journal of this young girl, and this ended up being a two book situation and Chronicle books who is known for art and were building their YA collection at the time loved it. And so I started working with them and we published this books and they're written as journals from this young artist's point of view. There's lots of illustrations in them because it's supposed to be like an artist sketchbook in what she's going through. And the one thing I really wanted was like, let's find out by the end of these books, that she's actually still a really good artist. She's not like a bad artist this whole time. We've got to grade, you know? And so one day, you know, who might be fun to write, like who is Piper when she's 50? Is she winning at Guggenheim or McArthur genius because of her work or is she still kind of plotting along but magnificent in what she.

Juliana Finch: 00:04:26

Yeah. One of the things I loved about Piper is that it was really cool to see in a book, a little bit of my own experience reflected as a teenage artist. I mean, I'm not a visual artist, but this certainty that she has, that she is an artist. Like there's never. She knows exactly where she wants to go and maybe not how she's gonna get there, but this like identity of herself as an artist just formed so early. And I definitely felt that too. And I think a lot of artists do when we're kids, you know, like, oh, once you realize this is a thing you can do. Yeah. So here's, here's what I wanna do. Did you have that sense as a kid too? Let you really wanted to write.

Kayla Cagan: 00:05:02

I had the sense that I really wanted to be in the theater. And I really wanted to direct from a very young age. I didn't think of it as like an ego thing. I was just like, I know how to look at a story or a play and make it happen. which maybe was a little bit of ego, but I wanted to be a director and a playwright. And always did I dabbled in acting a little because of the program I went to in college, you kind of had to do all parts of the theater. So it did tech as well. And acting definitely was on my, for. For sure, but it just kept reinforcing how much I liked writing because every time I had to go on stages as an actress, I would look at the script and wanna tear it apart and like keep working. And I mean Chekhov and Shakespeare, which is like hilarious well, I have some notes for you. Yeah. Yeah. Like, let's try this again. Arthur Miller, you know, but that's like comes with that great 16 year old, 17, 18, 20 year old confidence. And you know, nobody's told you, you can't yet, if you're lucky. and I had a pretty supportive family. My mom was a ceramicist and I grew up with a lot of friends in like my high school and middle school, which was magnet. Like I had a lot of artist, friends and theater friends. And so I always felt like this was a possibility to live this kind of life. Not easy for sure. but I'm glad to hear that you connect with Piper because some people have said like, she's so ambitious, it's arrogant, she's not paying attention to the other things in her life. But I do think when you have a particular drive or passion, when you're younger, whether it's sports or art or politics now, or foreign languages, you know, whatever it is, I think when you are young and set your eye on that, sometimes people can say, Aren't you selfish, you know, aren't you, who are you to wanna pursue this thing? And I didn't want her to back away from that. I didn't want her to have the knowledge yet that she had to feel guilty about pursuing her art love. So that was love, you know? Yeah. But yeah, I kind of always knew theater and I kind of knew writing. I loved reading books, but I never thought I could write a novel when I was younger. I kind of thought I can write plays and I understood plays and I understood plays' structure. Immediately, but like novels are a different beast. So it took me a long time. And that can feel a little strange when like you have friends who are doing that work that you're interested in 10 years before you are, you know, so like in a way they provide a roadmap and they give you a lot of advice and suggestions and feedback and, and then the other way you can feel like I'm so behind. but I don't know if I had been 18 when I started trying to write novels, I might not have felt that way. I might have been like, no, I'm perfect. And my books are awesome. you know, which would've been

Juliana Finch: 00:07:34

great. Is there a way that the process of playwriting and novel writing, when you approach the page, like to sit down for a day of work, is there a way that you've noticed that that process feels different? Or is it similar

Kayla Cagan: 00:07:48

a hundred percent? I mean, My husband's a screenwriter and he studied playwriting as well. He and I have both talked about like, it's almost math, you know, with plays. It's, it's very dialogue based. Everything is visual. You want characters to sound the way the audience to receive them in novels, you go inside the character in a way, but when you write for a play, the actor gets to do a lot of that work for you. If they're a good actor and a good director who's or you know, who understand the play you're writing. So when you approach them, we both are very character driven when we write. And so both of us will kind of always get a major character before we necessarily know what the story is or the, we may have an idea, you know, and that's something that in the DNA that they share. Like, for me, it's both, they're almost always very heavily character driven. I like female protagonists. Younger protagonists for the most part. I'm dabbling in older characters these days. And I think also with playwriting, you know, there's a sense that most plays shouldn't be over 90 pages and that's max. So

Juliana Finch: 00:08:54

you've got this like time limit. Yeah. That you're working

Kayla Cagan: 00:08:57

with novels are anywhere 300 to 500 pages. So it's like, it's not sprinting to a marathon, but it's more like a half marathon to a marathon. it's like gotta be able to go for the, the long run and also pace yourself that shares that in both of those, um, playwriting, you can feel like you've achieved something sooner, but you're also gonna have to rewrite it just as much. So well,

Juliana Finch: 00:09:17

speaking of process, let's get into, like, my series is talking all about. Those times when we're not writing as much and maybe we've just finished a big project. And so there's, there's a little bit of a downtime between creative works. Tell me about a time when, like, I don't know if you call it writer's block or if you call it a lull or a space or something else, but when you have that thing that happens when you're not making as much. What does that like for you? What does that feel like? So for a

Kayla Cagan: 00:09:44

long time, I didn't say this about anyone else, but for myself, I didn't really believe in writer's block. I was just like you either writing or not, but that doesn't mean you're blocked from writing when you're not writing because you're living and every experience can become like it's Nora Ephron who says everything is copy and I'm like, well, yeah, you know, you gotta be careful, but at the same time, stories are everywhere. And if you're alive and you're, and you're thinking, and living as a writer, Things are still in kind of stimulating your brain to keep writing, but last summer, 2021. So yeah, last summer, 2021. I, or maybe it was late 2020. I had turned in a project, a novel that I had been working on and I suddenly had this feeling. I had turned it into my agent and I had had this feeling that I wasn't sure what I was gonna write next. And. I was nervous about it. Usually the first week that I turn in a project after I've turned it in that first week, I feel great. I almost feel like I'm on staycation. You know, like I'm like, oh, whew. I am done. I am magnificent. I will never have to rewrite again, which is always BS. You know, you always have to do more. And I am no exception at all to that. So the first week I'm usually good. And by the middle of the second week I get itchy. I'm like, I gotta do something I gotta write. So this came up and I started struggling bad for maybe the first in my life where was like, I don't know what I do. I wanna do. I don't know if this thing is gonna sell. I don't know how to go forward. And not only was all of that happening because it felt like a first time to me. I really didn't know if that was the end. I was kind of. Oh, my God. I don't know if I'm getting out of this space of not being able to create something again, this went on for almost eight weeks. And so I have a text thread. I highly believe in having creative text thread, friends, and I was reaching out to them, not in the beginning, but by about midway through when it was feeling really bad. And I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna get through. I don't think I'm ever gonna have an idea. Again, I don't trust myself to have an idea again. And I don't know if my agent trusts me to have an idea again, like I don't know what to do. And all of them kept. You just turn something in rest, rest your brain. This is not about productivity. This is about creativity. Okay. Well, that's easy here said than done because right. Cause it still feels bad it still feels bad. And it's not solving the issue at hand, which is, will I create something again? The other part of it being, I got real caught up and heard the messaging that was happening during the pandemic, which. You know, Shakespeare wrote King Lear during the plague, like, OK. So I don't think I'm gonna write King Lear or maybe king beer, hand me a beer and we'll talk, but there's nothing that I'm gonna achieve like that. But in my head, I was like, I do have free time right now. I do have this and I'm not sick and I'm not in first responder. So I have no excuse. And that's a humongous guilt to put on yourself to produce something. It doesn't make any sense if somebody else said that to me, I'd be like, yeah, that. That's not what you do.

Juliana Finch: 00:12:55

right. Yeah. It's the pressure that we put on ourselves compared to what we would say too. An artist friend of ours.

Kayla Cagan: 00:13:01

Yeah. Totally different. Oh yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Cause you know, you can talk the, talk to your friends and then when you have to walk the walk yourself, you're like, oh, you know what? This is hard. this is really hard to be. So I would journal. I took a lot of walks during that I cried. I literally was grasping at ideas. Like maybe I could write about this. I could write about this. These were things literally I could hear myself saying them and being like, you're never gonna write about that. You don't care about it. You know, and I always ask people, like when I taught writing workshops and, and do trainings, I always ask people when they say like, well, I wanna write a book and I always say, okay, what about? And they're like, well, I don't know. I always think once you have your why, like, I know why I wanna write this and then I know, you know, I wanna tackle it, but I don't know how to write. That's fine. We can work with why, but if you don't have any idea and you're just like, I wanna do this. Like, it's like me telling you, I wanna write a song. What do you wanna write a song? I don't know. right. It's not helpful, right?

Juliana Finch: 00:13:59

Yeah. So what kind of music do you like? Like where's the starting, point's gotta be something I

Kayla Cagan: 00:14:04

he's, yeah. it's really hard, you know? You're like, what genre do you like to read? I don't read. Okay. All right. That's

undefined: 00:14:10

an

Juliana Finch: 00:14:10

interesting flip side too. I think common problem that maybe you have also experienced where we, we work in art forms that people think are easier than they are. Oh my gosh. To do. And like, ideally if you're doing it. It does seem easy because the reading of it is an easy experience or the listening to it is an easy experience. Right. But it makes, it makes everybody think that they can write a novel, which, you know, maybe, maybe they can, but they still have to actually do it. yeah. And I will say,

Kayla Cagan: 00:14:37

I think everyone can write a novel, can you publish a novel is a different. Situation and publishing and writing are different, even though writers to make a living, edit, need to be published. That's where visibility comes in. And that's where it also looks like ease. And I've had wonderful friends who don't think it's easy and who understand that who are not novelist at all. But I have some very well meaning people in my life who will say things like, well, how many books do you have out now? You should have three or four or. Okay here. My last book didn't come out that long ago. Like y'all, it takes a long time and it's not all on my end. Like publishing takes a long time entertainment. Yeah. Time the pandemic has set everything back.

Juliana Finch: 00:15:15

Yeah. And talk a little bit about that process of the creative process of like. Writing the novel and drafting it. And then, then there's edits. What is the timeline from when you're sitting down and getting your, let's say, when you finish your first draft to when the book actually comes up. Okay.

Kayla Cagan: 00:15:32

So for everyone, it might be a little bit different and it also depends if you already have a contract and you're on deadline for a book, because if you're on contract and deadline, and even though deadlines can usually be pushed a little bit, and there's a little navigation room that helps most writers, most writers need boundaries and. It's just helps us feel like we are trusted to do this thing, and we can't have so much room for self doubt and fear and we just have to kind of tackle it and then make it messy and then make it better. But I'll give you an example of what I know, which was for me, I'm a slow writer and I'm a slow reader. I'm not somebody who can work eight hours a day at a desk. I can work two to four hours. well, and that's by four hours, I'm kind of tanked mm-hmm creatively. So with my first book, I wrote it time to myself and I wrote 30 minutes a day and it took me a year to just write that draft. And during that time I had a writing group. So every week we meet and we would exchange pages and we had very select questions that we would ask each other. And this was pre. And, and so I would say, like, I need to know about the pacing this in these pages, or what do you think about the character development here? Or do you believe this blah, blah, blah. So between notes I'd get from them rewriting some things as I went along and then plowing through to keep writing this draft, it took about a year and a half for me to draft it. And at that point I didn't have an agent. So then I had to query with it, meaning, send out letters to find an agent because that's the only way editors that the traditional publishers will look at it that took about a month. And I did, I got really lucky. I found an agent I really liked, and she liked my work. And so she gave me some feedback. I had another two or three months that I need to work on notes from her before we could send it out to editors. Then the editors. Was very lucky. And I, I had several offers on the book and so I had to go through a, a very fun and exciting thing of talking to a bunch of editors to see who was the best fit for me. And that was great. Awesome. And then, yeah, that was super awesome. And then, so I learned a lot about publishing after this. So I, I went with an editor. I liked in a publisher I liked, which was Chronicle. And then it took another two years to get the book out because. Of their scheduling because of marketing because of the artwork that need to be done because of the printing process, because of the publicity process. So these are things that suddenly aren't about the writing. And during that time, they give you a new deadline of saying, okay, so your editor's going to send you a letter. You're gonna get your work looked at and you're gonna have to fix some things. Okay. And rewrite, you know? And so I, and I did, I had substantial rewrites I had to do, which was fine. I was very excited about it. During that time, the other part of the process is happening. Their marketing team is gearing up. They're planning, launches for the book. They're, you know, they're doing their site of what they do in publishing. So all in all the first book it took. I'm trying to think of the timeline. No, we went out 2014, sold in 2015, came out in 2017. and that's the other thing. It takes a long time for books to come out. Just like when people say, why does that TV show or movie take so long? Why is it in process so long? Why does that album take forever? It's like, there's a lot of elements to it. A lot of it, the artist doesn't control.

Juliana Finch: 00:18:50

Yeah. And I think in some ways, for me, that's helpful as an artist. by the time a thing is recorded and the rest of the process has to happen. So maybe by the time your stuff is in the hands of your publishing company and they're doing their side of it, you kind of have to like move on to the next thing that you wanna be making. Yeah. And, and I think it, that part of the process helps me to not be too attached. To the thing that is ultimately gonna come out, obviously when the album is coming out, I'm excited. I wanna hype it. You know, I want to go on tour and that's a whole other thing is planning that part. But in terms of actually songwriting, you know, I need to already be writing my next songs. And I assume it's the same with, with your process. You need to already be moving onto your next story.

Kayla Cagan: 00:19:32

Absolutely. And that's when it sucks when you. That kind of brain fart or writer's block when you're like, oh God, if I was working on something else, I wouldn't be worried about my project. I just turned in or, you know, series of relief that you're like, whew, now it's in their hands and whatever they do, they do. And I can't do anymore. And if you're like great, now I can finally work on that on play. I've been wanting to, or that book I wanna do. That's awesome. but if you don't have that at the ready, it's a little painful. Or if you're like, oh no, I, because of the deal I did with Chronicle, I had a, it was a two book deal. So I had to start my next right away and I wasn't sure what it was gonna be. And then they wanted a sequel to the first book and I had not planned for sequel so it did give me a lot to like concentrate on which I was thankful for. And I was happy to be this equal. But I was surprised. And so that distracted me a little bit, probably from having a, another, or our first bout of writer's block. But, um, yeah, I love the ability to go. Okay. That's over, give yourself a little bit over maybe a week break and then start on something new when you're, when you're

Juliana Finch: 00:20:38

able. Yeah. I heard you mention that you had a writer's group that you worked with and you've got this text thread of writer support buddies. I think that's a great idea to have just other artists who turn to who understand the process and understand what's going on. What are some other ways that you think that you started to come out of that period of block and what helps? What helped you? The

Kayla Cagan: 00:21:01

thread helps in the writer's group helped, honestly, I I'm kind of a geek and nerd in this way. Like if there's a seminar of a writer, I like, or she, she, or he, or they are doing a book interview somewhere because they're promoting their own books or whatever. I watched a lot of them online. Like especially last year when I was in my writer's block, part of me, it was a desperate grab to like, maybe they'll inspire me to keep going. maybe through the magic words that will rekindle my love affair with trying to make things, but like, there's a great bookstore out of DC, which I've never been to, but it's called loyalty bookstore and they host book events all the time that are online and streaming. You don't have to purchase anything. I usually buy the author's book because it, it also helps the bookstore, but like, I would watch those for inspiration. I would watch YouTube. I there's a studio called Jacob Kruger studio in New York. They are screenwriting studio, but they also do other kind of writing stuff. And every Thursday they host a free, happy hour online where you join a bunch of writers and they give you writing prompts and you do it for an hour. And I did that a couple of times and it was actually really fun. You don't have to be ready. Sounds so fun. Yeah, it's super. I highly recommended it. I have nothing to do with it. I don't make a commission or anything like that on it, but I, the person who leads that studio, his name's Jacob Kruger, he also has a YouTube podcast. And a lot of it does have to do specifically with screenwriting, but there are nuggets that ring true for other genres and art forms in different writing styles.. So I get a lot from that and I read a lot because reading is to me, the other hand in writing, like you have to be constantly seeing how things are done and I love reading. So like you knows, win-win I also tried very hard to keep. Other art forms in my life. Like I'd watch movies I'm during the pandemic. I, I have a membership that got rolled over because of the pandemic too, a museum here once a month on Monday nights, they would do a membership night and they'd let like 10 people in at a time. So on Monday nights, when I felt like it was safer during the pandemic, I would go to the museum and just walk and look at anything that could kind of take me out of the daily news and the daily grind. Being scared of my writer's block. I walked a lot and I listened to a lot of podcasts and I love the podcast I listened to because weirdly I started to feel like, oh, these are my friends. like, oh yeah, totally. You know, they give me the best advice. And they, some of them do and some of them I'm always like, I don't think so, but, oh, well I'm not gonna be on your show. So who cares? There are moments of struggle for sure. You know, and because I don't necessarily wanna air when I'm having a hard time on social media. Not because I think everyone has to have like a perfect profile or be super happy, but I sometimes don't need unsolicited advice. I'm sure you've had that happen to you too. And I didn't need kind of anyone else giving me a pity party. Like it was a pity party for one in a way. So it was like, I wanna hear everything and I wanna, I want everything to come towards me, but I don't wanna like, be vulnerable enough to just tell everyone this sucks. And now I have to hear everyone feel sorry for me. Does that make sense?

Juliana Finch: 00:24:11

Totally. Absolutely. And I think just disconnecting from social media during a time. Like that is a great idea anyway. Yeah. As much as you can. Yeah. Because there's also the other part of it, which is everybody is posting about their work and all the stuff that they're doing, which normally I'm. All of my friend's biggest cheerleader. Right. But if I'm really in a stuck place and I see all that stuff, I'm like, oh gosh, like it just makes me feel worse that I'm not making stuff sometimes. And you know, I think it's totally okay to be like, I am not looking at this. I'm not gonna look at the news. I'm gonna go. Outside and touch grass as the kids say oh yeah. Walk around outside.

Kayla Cagan: 00:24:48

Yeah, that's a really nice thing. There were a couple of days this year where I took like a 45 minute drive and went to the beach. I'm not a big beach person, but I was like, I need to see the water. I need to maybe get my feet in the sand and just disconnect and not then report on Instagram that I went to the beach. like, you know, and the, I will say the other thing is just this week. I saw a friend in real life and another friend read over our manuscript. I'm working on right now. When I saw my friend in real life, she had read part of the manuscript I'm working on right now. And she is an actress and a producer and, and she's not a writer really, but she's very good at. Examining work. She's got a great critical eye. And she was like, you know, there were a couple scenes where I thought the tension could be higher. And, and she gave me a couple suggestions and I felt myself instead of being defensive at all, I was like, oh yeah, like I wanted to give her a high five. Like I was like, I was like, yes. And then this could happen. And, and yeah, and that, and realized just how much the pandemic had. Not only made me feel isolated, but like that's where I thrive when it's a group of other creators and we're bouncing stuff off each other, and it's not about ownership and it's not about will this help itself was genuinely getting excited about me taking the work seriously, you know, and finding the points where it could be sharper or funnier or whatever. And I thought so relieved. And then when a friend of mine looked over and gave me some. She and I talked and I was like, this is exactly what I needed. This is what I have missed during the pandemic. Cuz I used to meet with friends in, at the library or the coffee shop or one of us would go to each other's homes and we would hash out ideas and brainstorm and laugh and commiserate. And that has been part of it that I don't think I realized how much that felt taken away from me. So when you're dealing with writer's block, just going back to that, it's like, oh, you feel extra alone and extra isolated. Especially everyone online is showing their daily achievements of their work or their song or their latest album or their newest painting or their biggest book deal. It's like, oh my God, I'm only seeing achievements. I don't know. I need to talk to people who are in the struggle. and it was really great. And a great reminder to me, like no wonder, this has felt a little harder than usual lately, which sounds really naive, but I thought I'd be a person who's like, I don't think I was gonna like struggle as much on a day to day through the pandemic with my creativity as I did.

Juliana Finch: 00:27:13

Yeah, I think it hit me later than it hit some other people. And so there was a point in time when I was like, oh yeah, I think I've gotten through this unscathed, you know, and then it was like winter 20, 20. It really slammed into me.

Kayla Cagan: 00:27:28

Oh, record scratch. They're like, yeah, it was really, I had definitely had my ups and downs during the pandemic as a whole and a, and in general because the state of the world and the, and how much misery there. However on a personal creative level, I was like, I'm doing, I get to go to my, sit at my desk every day and do what I want to do. I can't complain mm-hmm until I can complain. And I was like, oh no, this is hard to, and I'm alone. And I heard on this other podcast called big magic, which is very woo woo. But there is some good stuff in there, Liz Gilberts. Yes. Brene Brown was being interviewed and she was talking about the, about writing. And she said, we were never, she's like, you can collaborate. We were never meant to create a loan. And that, and I listened to that probably five or six years ago at this point, maybe four years ago. I'm not sure, but I have, that has stuck with me and I'm like, Oh, and maybe that's from my theater background or whatever, but I'm like, right. I do better when I'm inspired by other people. When I collaborate with other people, when it's not just me trying to form an world, build on my own which is why I love working with an editor. It's why I love working. Alongside other writers when we're all doing stuff. And there's a moment when we all turn and like, can I toss out an idea and hear are your feedback on it? And nobody makes fun of you and nobody gives you guff and nobody says, you know, I would've changed the entire third act.

Juliana Finch: 00:28:52

Yeah. And there are ideas that you just wouldn't come up with unless you were playing off of something. Someone else throws out too. Yeah. So you hear an idea across the room and you're like, oh, and that gives me this idea. Mm-hmm exactly, exactly. The community aspect is so important. And I, and it's nice that that's starting to come back and it's nice that there's some virtual options that have sort of happened in the

Kayla Cagan: 00:29:13

meantime. Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like I know people have started zoom rooms where, and I was a part of one for about half a year where writers would meet from all over the country, but there were five of us. So it wasn't a huge, overwhelming amount to manage. But we would all just we'd log on. We'd talk for about 10 minutes talk shop, and then we'd write. And basically it was an accountability tool to just make sure we were all at our desk and not like cleaning house or procrastinating in some other way. And that was helpful too. And that felt a little bit like community, you know, it was like, well, it's not perfect, but it's a good substitute.

Juliana Finch: 00:29:45

I love that. Well, Kayla, we're gonna put all of the stuff that you recommended and mentioned in the show notes. So for listeners who are curious about those book events and the other awesome resources you talked about, we're gonna have those in the show notes, and I'm so grateful that you had time to talk to me today. And I know that people are going to find you. Relatable and love to hear about your process and for anybody who's stuck on their work in progress. Maybe this will be the podcast that they're listening to on their walk before they go back to try to get at it again.

Kayla Cagan: 00:30:17

Well, it's a pleasure talking to you about this, and I hope that my weirdness during the pandemic, I'm trying to create stuff. It helps other people's weirdness during the pandemic trying to create stuff. And I hope. We'll find their ways through it too.

Juliana Finch: 00:30:31

It's what it's all about. We're all helping each other with our weirdness oh, for

Kayla Cagan: 00:30:35

sure. For sure.

Tamara Kissane: 00:30:40

Established in 2017 artist soapbox is a podcast production studio based in North Carolina. Artist soapbox produces original scripted audio fiction and an ongoing interview podcast about the creative process. We cultivate aspiring audio Dramatists and producers, and we partner with organizations and individuals to create new audio content for more information and ways to support our work. Check out artistsoapbox.org or find us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. The artist soapbox theme song is ashes by Juliana Finch.